Saturday, September 24, 2005

Jara hat ke -2 :Nature or Human

I like watching Sci-fi movies and sometime they are thought provoking. Artificial intelligence is much verbalized topic nowadays in any Sci-fi movie and in “technological high society”. Ultimate aim of scientists and technologist is to make a complex and intelligent system such as us (human beings). How much time it will take is just an estimate. Anyway, robot companies are try to make robots that will be able to challenge the football world champions and for this they are setting a target of 2050 A.D. Kinematics and dynamics of robots (especially legged robot) is very complex in nature and so this target if achieved will be milestone in development of automated system. But here I want to talk about Artificial Humanoid.

 Some day robots will be as intelligent as human beings. Some of the recent developments like blind man driving a car, cloning etc assure us that someday it will be possible. Some day human will be able to create life and intelligent systems. But still there are many things which show how inefficient we are. Human eye lens (one) can act as both concave and convex lens. Humans are still to manufacture that kind of lens and it is just a simple lens. Human body is full of such miracles. Does that prove that nature is better creator than us?

Many of us think that man will never be able to compete with nature. For those people I have some stats. Life first appeared on earth about 3.6 billion years ago and first man appeared on earth not more than 500,000 years ago. That means nature took around 3.6 billions years to create and perfect complex system like human beings. Human have just started. Give them a fair chance and I am sure they will be able to make much better specimen in much shorter period of time. The main problem is artificial intelligence. We can think about abstract things, even we don’t have any prior information about it. Like if I force someone to describe what is SWEGMA@#235 and where it is, he will be able to tell me something about it. He might be wrong but this is something which robots and even super computers will not be able to do. But someday man will bestow this power to machines and then what will be its consequences. Will man will be able to control his ultimate creation or the history will be repeated once again. Nature gave power of intelligence to man and lost control of it. Will the same thing be repeated once again in future? Well, some other time….


Kritik4u said...

Great full proof writing Voice. One thing is for certain, a new species with infinite memory and the ability to learn and never forget is going to be a superior species than us. So lets just hope that while we give them our intelligence lets make this so called "AI" more human like and leave some deliberate weaknesses in them so that they will always depend on us.
Now isn't it something similar to what our creators might have done for us. We are given intelligence but then we have emotions. When our emotions go out of control we always give ourself in to God. I would like a similar model for intelligent robots :P so that they always need us eventually. But of course some of those robots will be 'atheists'. We must make sure we bring periodic misery in their 'lives' so that they will always remember their creators. :P (laughs like a devil :D)

Avinash singh said...

hmmm now about this 'blog' of urs,sadly,i dont have much to say... the words and their meanings are OK.. but the outcome is too confusing to grasp..

its just like nothing is actually there still everything is there... what is space.. what is beyond it..the same thing is with robots.. how can u give emotions to a machine..from where the hell does emotions come within us... why is religion there.. and if it is why is it not uniform... too many questions and so less time... i think i will bide my time for now n use it on much brighter and relaxing thoughts..... and hope to think on all these at some later stage.. when i will be free of tangible n materialistic pleasures...

u shall do this too.....

Anonymous said...

well.. all the world is a stage :))
i knw this comment will be understood by you only..but if u follow that point of view..these questions become abstract..n sadly now a days most of the time i think from that point of view. anyways, yes i agree with you that human being can do unimaginable things..( came back to the ground intellectual level :))..)
but do we know the nature?? how much it had done?? where r we in this universe n what r the other things on other planets...may be nature did much more n took much less time.. n may be its doing things even faster..its just we cant notice it..

nice blog n nice thought


saurabh said...

in the last blog faster means faster than us....the human being


Captain Jack Sparrow said...

Artificial intelligence as they show in movies may not be a reality at all according to many scientists. Artificial intelligence or learning is related to neural networks. And we studied only single layer and double layer neural networks, and the formulation of the double layer neural network was incomprehnsible to me. As far my knowledge is, current research is limited to single digit layers of neural networks. When it reaches double figures, that will be an achievement in itself.

Captain Jack Sparrow said...

From Wikipedia - very interesting.

In some comparisons between the brain and computers, the following calculation is made: There are billions of neurons in the human brain; estimates differ and there are individual differences, some suggest about 2×10^12 neurons. Since the relaxation time of these neurons is about 10 ms, this could amount to a processing speed of 100 Hz. The whole brain could therefore have a processing power of roughly 2×10^14 logical operations per second. To compare, a 64-bit PowerPC 970 processor at a frequency of 3 GHz corresponds to 2×10^11 logical operations per second. But mind that the neuron can have more than 1000 connections thus has at least 1000-bit processing instead of 64-bit. So it can process roughly 5.8*10^32 more information (2×10^1000 / 2×10^64), making the brain roughly 5.8×10^35 as powerful as a current high-end consumer PC. However, this comparison is extremely speculative. The working of biological neural networks is not well understood; it is not clear that anything like the "logical operations" performed by a computer actually occur in biological neural networks.

If interested plz read:

Captain Jack Sparrow said...

More funda -

"Some work has been done which indicates that a maximum of five layers (one input layer, three hidden layers and an output layer) are required to solve problems of any complexity."

Source -

Captain Jack Sparrow said...

Found out more - brains of mammals have cortices with six layers of neurons.
So maybe there will be no research for neural networks with "double digit" layers.

Captain Jack Sparrow said...

Dan’s Artificial Neural Network (DANN) - A five layer neural network. Maybe a six layer network isn't far away.

Captain Jack Sparrow said...

I am getting totally confused. he he, nice topic, liked researching on it.

Kritik4u said...

Taking into account Jack Sparrow's point I may say that its true neural networks has lost much of the interest and enthusiasm it once enjoyed. But lets assume that eventually humans do crack a way to make an AI with six-seven-eight ..... layer neural network like system.

But before they achieve that, they will make less complicated AI's in the beginning which will be like our neanderthal or java man. Then slowly their functionalities will evolve and they will become more and more aware of themselves etc etc. And all this time we wont let em know that we created them and if we somehow hide ourselves from their sense of perception we would truly be "GODS". HAHAHAHA.

Maybe nature who created us now is acting dumb and pretending to be "non-living". Maybe our senses dont realise the presence and intelligence of nature.

Now any takers for "living nature" hypothesis :P

Voice said...

~I used to think that nature is techinically more creative than human beings. it is from sometime only i start think that mite not be true.

~nice idea Kritik.
Man must leave some weakness in its ultimate creation or his creation will forget him. But there is no restlessness in animals...which direct them to nature or god. so it mite be possible that restlessness is just another side effect of intelligence

this much is good enuff. hey it just a thought which occurred to me. i dont have any satisfacotry answer to any of ur Questions

mite be...possible. nature mite be playing tricks or not showing all of its card.

~enthusiastic captain
nice research work. neural network and fuzzy logic are important tools. really human brain is very complex. And u r confused becoz u know something....

Voice said...

~ kritik

living nature...Hmmmm. But nature is living...isnt it. r u trying to humanify nature. nature is changing.. and we r just too small to understand things. and i dont know about u but i m too dumb to understand anything as complex as nature

Kritik4u said...

I cannot claim to understand nature... hence just hypothesizing. And yeah I meant an intelligent and rational nature with the same relation between nature and humans as will be between humans and intelligent robots.. :P. The relationship of creator and created and that of hide and seek.

Sid said...

Artificial Intelligence generates a lot of fascination in us. There have been lots of discussions and movies and novels and stuff. AI has been potrayed in both positive and negative light. However, when you look at AI in the face, there are just 2 questions.

1>Is it possible ?
2> What are the consequences ?

1> Is it possible ? Different people have different views. Some people say human creativity and ingenuity can never be replicated. That always sounded a bit creationist to me, as if man was a special creation of god. I believe man follows the laws of mechanics the same as any other manmade machine. The only thing that stands between creation of AI is sheer complexity of the project. However, I would welcome AI as it would mean complete understanding of ourselves.

2> What would be the consequences ?
This is where most of the poeple start to get scared. The least scary vision sees them becoming a new race that competes with humanity and that humanity has no chance against them. The bleakest vision has them killing off humanity completely as soon as they gain sentience. However things probably wont be as dramatic. Humans created machines. The machines will always be as the humans want them. Of course, nothing stops the day when machine will do all work and humans, having nothing to do, will become degenerate pleasure seeking lumps of flesh. As good a way to end as any other, i guess.

Raqs said...

Artificial Intelligence.Like all other so called "in" things totally incomprehensible to me.When ever someone talks about artifial intelligence, the entire thing is wrapped around a impenetrable fog which I find myself unable to understand.All the computer jargon which Captain ( Aye Aye) mentioned is obviously alien to me .But as far as I think to understand artifical intelligence, one has to understand natural intelligence.Intelligence is obviously a relative thing.A is intelligent because B is dumb.But how come under the same external conditions ,brain of two different person functions differently?? I guess the structure of the brain has something to do with that.I am having a course on AI this semester( the prof is *******) And we are suppose ot be learing abt some agents .These agents are suppose to take some percepts from the environment and supposed to react in the most rational way so that they qualify as a bot.But then I think where is the intelligence of the agent .Its all the intelligence of the progammer and the guy who designed the entire thing .

I am just making a point here .any furthur comments are most welcome


yours truly

Anonymous said...

sheesh!! I am late in commenting on your blog and these ppl's comments have confused me even more.

I don't have much to say except that I feel that human have a very very long way to go to build a perfect replica of man, complete with emotions and all. And I wonder if they'd be able to do so successfully. We haven't understood our own mind completely. How can we then replicate it?

Leave the mind alone. Our body is a complex yet beautiful machine.Building an android would be a huge task for humans.


Nimesh said...

U c Voice, It was never possible to create the human emotions in machines. The reasons are many, some of which are viz. computers use system which prides on being accurate to the last bit, but it is a discrete one, while the human system has the beauty of being fuzzy. Remember this that nature made us organisms with emotions from the beginning, and it was not that they developed in us as a result of evolution. What's more, it is what is un- achieveable by sheer logic, as it is something far above it, and not a separate field. AI is ARTIFICIAL intelligence, a form of intelligence which is artificial, meaning devoid of intelligence, so a machine will hence never be able to stand vis-à-vis a human! Good thought u put in though, appreciable idea. Keep writing more of such blogs.

Avinash singh said...

voice u r ..rocking man.. now do u understand the impetus of ur creative writing and topic selection....

keep the gud work up.. and all the comment writers .. nice to c such a tempo..

Phoenix said...


rad ur blog long time back, but itni intelligent baateisn mujhe samajh nahi aati
way above my in technical uchhalne ka mood nahi hai

write a new post, theni'll comment

Nimesh said...

Voice, This is regarding ur remarks that He should be used for God and not he (notice the capital H).
See, English grammar says G-od, T-hee or T-hy. But it does not say anything about using H-e. Am i making my point clear?
Furthermore, it's now my wish to use h-e or H-e.

Lalit Singh said...

Achchaa likha hain boss...

Voice said...


~without any specific reason i believe AI will be possible and having both good and bad consequences ,like all other technological inventions

well it is the intelligence of the programmer but after sometime if the program keep updating and learning from its past experience u have to say it got some intelliegence. this can be the first step. So do program some fundu agents... and dont consider as academic load or else u will never be able to do it :)

huge now but someday it may be simple enuff. Really human body is the best example of optimisation, heat transfer, mass flow, the best materials etc etc.

we dont know how our brain process.. and now a days soft computing tools are soo frequently used in programs and robots. MACHINES can be intelligent and if they get the intelligence they mite be superior than us. and wat is emotion flow of some chemicals and these chemicals induces varies parts of our brains .. mite be possible for m/c s too in future.

@phoenix lalit
:) thnx for reading

Chitrangada said...

Hmmm kaafi intelligent baatein likhi hain ...

but for a change i understand all :P

Nimesh said...

Intelligence is something which has not yet been fully understood. What we are dealing here is with "Artificial Intelligence" and not natural intelligence. Artificial intelligence is something which in essence is "not intelligence, but seems like an intelligence". To tell u what is intelligence it'll tell me again a century, since i certainly am too naive to explain that, and i myself am working on human emotions, so i won't of ur help in that either, but remember that emotions are more than cocktails of some 3-d proteins like oxytocin and anandamide. It's the effect of these wonderous molecules on cells, not the molecules themselves which are a point of human curiosity which lead to the rise of emotional computing. Rmember, it's not yet possible to understand human intelligence, forget super- intelligence and super- super- intelligence and emotions, for it is proven that emotions are something which are copyrighted. anyways, it depends if u feel that humans are bunch of chemicals or a miracles. i believe in miracles and i'm enjoying it.

chandu said...

waiting for the next :)

diana said...

cud have emphasised more on how humans would b superios to men as in...more xamples dan de lense case...but was pretty ok

Anonymous said...

"Human have just started. Give them a fair chance and I am sure they will be able to make much better specimen in much shorter period of time" -- Ok, since u r saying, take ur time. but I want an interim report at my desk in, say, 2 billion years :-D

Nice post, Bhav. zara hatke, indeed :-)

Voice said...




i choose this one becoz this is one admirable thing which most of the people dont know or dont appreciate.

suru said...

i think rather than getting into other's should look in his own.. first we should try to find our own existence n origin.. i donno much but watever i know... still all darwin n all v no hard core proofs.. how we originated..

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Anonymous said...

Voice, you have given a very apt example of the human eye. Another good analogy is that of human brain. The kind of incidents we can recall, the level of detail we may acquire in one fair glance, and store it for years and years altogether, and bring it back at the brink of eye is something that has always astonished me. The book 'Blink' Malcolm Gladwell, talks about this phenomenon at length. And this knowledge, at times, may be mistaken for intelligence, even though its just a part of it.